Does Religion make one DUMB?

I asked this of my smart atheist friends yesterday:

Hey, I have to grant you one thing, you’re all pretty smart!!

From my observations here, all those who profess *no* real belief in God, are very intelligent, and very well articulated (mostly), and of course, very logical. Your intelligence seems to be the major thing for you.

Now, I would be interested to know, what do you think about those who are not as intelligent, like the average Joe Bloe. He doesn’t have the capacity to think like you. He doesn’t have a brain for science and stuff. He’s just an ordinary bloke, but not born with a real high IQ. You might even call him a bit dumb.

What can you offer him so that he can improve himself? Can you make him smart? Is there much hope for him to find meaning in life? And does he have the same worth on this earth as you do?

NFT (an atheist, and proud of it) writes:

“what do you think about those who are not as intelligent, like the average Joe Bloe.”

He can be taught to want to learn things, and he can be taught critical thinking skills.

“He doesn’t have the capacity to think like you.”

Says who? Just because he doesn’t, doesn’t mean he can’t. Critical thinking isn’t hard, and most people do it everyday at work.

“He doesn’t have a brain for science and stuff.”

Everybody uses the scientific method all the time with ordinary stuff. It is how our minds solve problems by default. People just need to be reminded to extend that to everything.

“He’s just an ordinary bloke, but not born with a real high IQ. You might even call him a bit dumb.”

I’d only call him dumb if he chooses to not apply critical thinking. anytime somebody chooses to not think critically, that is dumb. when you can’t figure something out and just toss up your hands and say “well, therefore god did it” that is dumb. there is no excuse for being dumb. it is a choice.

“What can you offer him so that he can improve himself?”

books. and teach him about the fallacies we often fall victim to. teach him how to identify “bullshit” and how to think critically.

ME:

Okay, books?? But what if he can’t read… if he’s dyslexic, or something.

And you are saying that those of us who believe in a superior being, with a greater mind than ours,… WE ARE DUMB FOR BELIEVING IN GOD!! Right?

So that makes us inferior creatures, right?

And you are superior because you don’t need a god, right? You’re too smart for God!! right?

I’m sorry for being so blunt, but I’ve had a bad day with computer software and hardware!!  Trying to make them understand each other!! Grrrrrrr!! But I think I’ve eventually found the problem!!

Serge:

not following you Jeanette

it’s not a question of smart or stupid at all - not sure why you’ve raised this point. Are you saying that if you’re smart enough you can survive without god, but for simple folk, some kind of religion is needed?

I’m sure that’s not what you’re saying.

There are people who wont read. They wont learn beyond what their immediate social circle dictates they must know. I know or have met plenty of people who have no idea what it means to think for themselves, and to be honest I pity them because I fear many of them never will. The worst affliction would be to be un-intelligent and yet smart enough to know it. This expresses itself as “you think you’re smarter than me” and often ends in conflict. Ever been the guy in a room full of rednecks who has the misfortune to use a four syllable word? It’s not fun. While those people are stuck in their social circles, you can’t reach them. the only way to reach them is to break them away.

…like the way the Church and State broke away thousands of Australian Aboriginal children from their families only a scant few decades ago. The road to hell is paved with good intentions they say. They forget to mention the bad intentions.

You said it earlier Jeanette - something like “only true christians feel the spiritual - if you can’t feel it, you’re not one of us” which is really the biggest load of crap one could write. I understand spirituality well enough. I think what you’re feeling and what I’m feeling is the same - the difference is you see your feelings in the framework of a myth, while I accept same feelings as another aspect of being human, nothing more, and certainly nothing less.

More from Serge:

Jeanette, a computer isn’t important enough to get angry about.

“And you are superior because you don’t need a god, right? You’re too smart for God!! right? “

god doesn’t exist - ergo, your rhetoric questions are moot. however…

IF god existed, I would be forced to vote for the other guy.

Have you actually read that bible thing? God is monster! Have you read the bit where he sends some she-bears to tear apart small children? Did you pay attention when he destroyed entire cities, indeed - when he drowned the entire population except for one family. I don’t understand how anyone could believe in this villian and not plot to destroy Him. The god of the bible is a tiny, petty juvenile little murderer when compared to the magnificence of nature. If I believed in God Jeanette, I would hate him.

So… it’s lucky for Him that he doesn’t exist. It’s not that I’m too smart for God, it’s that the idea of God is too stupid for me.

Me:

Firstly, Serge, you interpret what I say as “only true Christians FEEL the spiritual…”

I would prefer to say, “Only true Christians KNOW and discern the spiritual…” That is a lot different to just feeling. Feelings are so fickle and undependable, so I don’t live by them.

Rather I live by FAITH (that word you don’t like) in the living God, the One who created all things.

And the myth bit? Who says it’s a myth? That is the opinion of those who choose not to believe.

And as I said, all this DOES seem foolish to those who don’t have the spiritual insight. Of course all this spiritual stuff seems illogical to you.

But couldn’t it be that there IS another realm beyond human logic?

I find for myself, that my own logic can get me in trouble, because I don’t see the full picture. But there is One who knows better than I. His thoughts are higher than mine. One who sees all, knowing the beginning from the end. Why not trust the One who knows all!!

More from me:

Serge, you wrote:
“Have you actually read that bible thing? God is monster!”

Really? You haven’t read very far!

“Have you read the bit where he sends some she-bears to tear apart small children?”

Small children?? The Hebrew word is ne’arim qetannim, which can be legitimately translated as “young lads” or “youths”. And these youths deliberately mock and deeply insulted the man of God. So it was a deliberate afront against God. And as often happens in the Old Testament, God reveals His wrath. But a holy God will not be mocked!!

However, many times the Bible says that God is longsuffering and slow to anger. But His patience can only last so long when it comes to evil. Being a God of justice, He does have to punish evil. Which is the reason for you next comment…

“Did you pay attention when he destroyed entire cities, indeed - when he drowned the entire population except for one family.”

Did you notice that it also said in Genesis??

“The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
“So the LORD said, ‘I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.’ But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.”

“I don’t understand how anyone could believe in this villian and not plot to destroy Him. The god of the bible is a tiny, petty juvenile little murderer when compared to the magnificence of nature. If I believed in God Jeanette, I would hate him.”

Isn’t that sort of insult like that of the youths who were killed by the bears?

But Serge, haven’t you read other parts of the Bible?

“For thus says the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel:
‘In returning and rest you shall be saved;
In quietness and confidence shall be your strength.’
But you would not,
And you said, ‘No, for we will flee on horses’—
Therefore you shall flee!
And, ‘We will ride on swift horses’—
Therefore those who pursue you shall be swift!
One thousand shall flee at the threat of one,
At the threat of five you shall flee,
Till you are left as a pole on top of a mountain
And as a banner on a hill.

“Therefore the LORD will wait, that He may be gracious to you;
And therefore He will be exalted, that He may have mercy on you.
For the LORD is a God of justice;
Blessed are all those who wait for Him.
For the people shall dwell in Zion at Jerusalem;
You shall weep no more.
He will be very gracious to you at the sound of your cry;
When He hears it, He will answer you.” (Isa 30:15-19)

“Or do you suppose that the Scripture is speaking to no purpose that says, The Spirit Whom He has caused to dwell in us yearns over us and He yearns for the Spirit [to be welcome] with a jealous love?
“But He gives us more and more grace… That is why He says, God sets Himself against the proud and haughty, but gives grace [continually] to the lowly (those who are humble enough to receive it).” (James 4:5-6, Amp)

“But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.” (2 Pet 3:8-9)

THAT’S THE GOD I KNOW!!

Andrew (an ally) wrote:

If more people were like you, Jeanette, less people would have a problem with God.

Me:

Awww!! Gee!! Thanks Andrew!!
I do pray that I, and all the believers here, can be clear and pure lights for the Lord.

NFT pipes in again:

“But what if he can’t read… if he’s dyslexic, or something.”

you said the average joe. the average joe in my country can read.

“And you are saying that those of us who believe in a superior being, with a greater mind than ours,… WE ARE DUMB FOR BELIEVING IN GOD!! Right?”

no, that isn’t what i said at all is it? I’d only call him dumb if he chooses to not apply critical thinking. anytime somebody chooses to not think critically, that is dumb. when you can’t figure something out and just toss up your hands and say “well, therefore god did it” that is dumb. there is no excuse for being dumb. it is a choice.

you sound insecure about your belief in god, or that you think it means you are dumb. i didn’t say you are dumb for beleiving in god.

“So that makes us inferior creatures, right?”

what? you’re really revealing some odd ideas here. i don’t know where this is coming from.

“And you are superior because you don’t need a god, right? You’re too smart for God!! right? “

? do you feel dumb, jeanette? do you feel like all the people that can sit and talk about the philosophical implications of this or that, or the logical inconsistencies of the Trinity (for example), or social ramifications of how we apply value to things and life….do all those people make you feel dumb? is that what you are trying to say? all these smarty-pants atheists with all their logical arguments that all go over your head…maybe they know something you don’t, but you love jesus and thats all you need, right? apparently it isn’t. if you don’t want to feel dumb then do something about it. learning things about the world doesn’t mean you can’t love jesus.

all that matters is if you feel dumb. you have to be happy with yourself, it doesn’t matter what i think of you or anybody else thinks about you. you’re not dumb, if you were i doubt you’d be here in this group. look at the questions you’ve asked here, look at all the input you’ve made on this group. would a dumb person do any of that? i don’t think so, but what is important is that you don’t think so. asking those questions is a part of critical thinking, so you can’t possibly be very dumb. a dumb person wouldn’t even have asked.

Me:

Oh, gee!! Phew!! That’s a relief!!

No really, I don’t feel dumb, and I do understand what you say about critical thinking. Even the Bible says to test all things, and don’t just accept it because someone said so.

And as I’m writing, Joyce Myers just comes on the radio (2am), and says, “Just think what you’re thinking about!!”

She took the words out of my mouth.. or fingertips!!

Anyhow, it’s way too late… I must go to bed!!

Maddy (self-professed atheist … though a lovely girl) says:

Are religious people dumb?  No.  But l do feel sometimes their full capacity is smothered.

lts as if they are living life just as we all do, but when something crops up, they read their instruction book before considering anything else. Atheists etc, on the other hand, think.

My friend who is an evangelist is lovely, and smart…really smart….but its never used. Ever. God and jesus have all the answers, so, disengage brain. Dont need it any more.
l remember when l first met her. Her personality struck me straight away, and l remember saying to someone later that it was so sad, because she was obviously so intelligent.

lts so obvious with her that her faith is retarding.

lts like NFT said…its choosing not to think critically, and she has made that choice.

Thats not to say its the case with everyone. People who join a discussion forum like this are far from dumb, regardless of faith.

Jeanette, it sounds like you are wondering if you are coming across differently to how you imagined, or had realised. Has reading the thoughts of other theists had an effect on you, and has the atheist reaction to the theists been of interest?

l don’t suppose many in here have seen such deep interaction before between the two groups.

Has anyones impression of their own group changed?

NFT:

these types of groups remind me that there are non-believers who ‘non-believe’ for really dumb reasons, or no reason at all. i haven’t encountered that much here, i don’t think. but i’ve encountered that elsewhere.

some people are more frivolous about things that other people take very seriously or put a lot of thought into. people are just different. every field has a spectrum of adepts and laymen. hopefully, platforms like this push laymen towards becoming adepts. in my experience, they do. of course, i was once a novice too!

Me:

Thanks for your input on my quandary!!

As I said, yesterday was a bad day computer wise… totally frustrating … and dropped in here from time to time, during the happening. Thankfully, by the end of the day, most things had been sorted out, but there is still problems with one bit of software. So that’s today’s task!!

However, some good points have been raised here. I do agree about the critical thinking bit. The opposite, that so many fall into, is what I would call passivity, and that should have no place in a Christian’s thinking.

We believe in a super-intelligent being, in whose image we are made. So doesn’t that mean He’d want us to be intelligent too? That should be the Christians stance, imo!!

I want to come back and say more later!!

Serge:

As a non believer, I guess my say in religious matters has little weight - but I’ve always felt that if you believe you were made by God, you should also feel that it is your duty to do the most you can with the abilities you were given. The Church in its many manifestations often seems to encourage it’s followers to avoid critical thinking about matters where they feel there is a level of risk to their belief.

You can disbelieve anything the Church throws at you - including jesus, and you can still have you God. It’s all a matter of making God bigger than the Church wants Him to be. Which thankfully, is back to the original point of this thread.

Me:

And Serge, on that point I agree.

It’s religious Christianity that wants to stop people thinking. However, that is not what the Bible teaches. And besides, a vast majority of people who profess Christianity, hardly ever read the book. They accept what they here in Church on Sunday (if and when they attend), and think no more of it.

Anyhow, more about that later…